3:46 pm
The Law is a Flexible Instrument
Posted by Garance ()I think Atrios is not totally getting what I’m talking about in his response to my Wall Street Journal piece. First of all, our laws recognize that maturity comes slowly. In addition to the minimum drinking age of 21, the minimum age for entering Congress is 25, and for the Senate, 30. Many jurisdictions make 21 the baseline minimum for holding state senatorial or other government positions, while others use 25 as their local baseline. Several states have a 30-year-old minimum for the governorships, and we’re all familiar with the 35 year minimum that exists for the presidency.
Under what I am suggesting — which is really, at this point, more a general principle for legislation than a fully worked out proposal (I’m no lawyer) — women and men under 21 would retain the right to flash anyone they wanted or take photos for personal use, under the theory that the people a law is intended to protect should not be punished under it. All that would be lost is young men and women’s ability to participate in commercial enterprises looking to sell their erotic images, and the risk of involuntary distribution of their non-commerical images. Women and men would gain a greater right to control their own erotic images until age 21. The anti-porn laws we have now are much, much stronger than the one initially passed in the late 1970s, and what I was thinking of is something a bit more like that initial legislation, which would provide women and men with a tool to control their own images and prevent exploitation, but not result in any kind of massive prosecutorial crackdown per se. The intent would be to expand the zone of privacy for young men and women. The key factors to be regulated would be commercial use of images and unwanted use of non-commercial images.
As for Ezra Klein’s suggestion that we lower the drinking age to 18 and create a category of “impaired consent” under which no one could legally participate in anything, I really don’t think we want to go there.
I used to write informed consents for a major hospital and so recall that once you get into restricting consent based on subjective assessments of competence — and non-medical and retrospective ones at that — you can eliminate the ability of a lot of people to participate in research or even their own treatments. For example, if you are studying drug addicts who are almost always high, is their consent valid? I think the general understanding is that as long as someone is not obviously completely high, you have to treat them as being able to consent. Can a person with mental illness or dementia consent? Up to a point, sure. The same is the case for people who are alcohol impaired. The question of impaired ability to consent comes up a lot in rape cases, and my general understanding of the way those cases have been decided is that the impaired ability to consent argument generally requires much greater levels of inebriation than what one sees in the Girls Gone Wild DVDs. Not all those shoots involve inebriation. Nor are all the images I’m talking about commercially motivated, either.
UPDATE: The always thoughtful Ampersand at Alas, A Blog has more.
UPDATE II: Apparently there is a controversy over linking to Alas, which I was unaware of until now.


May 4th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
I wouldn’t really classify a GGW flashing as an “erotic image.” As explained in my prior comment, the adverse consequences that a young woman may face for flashing a GGW camera are minimal, basically just a youthful indiscretion she later can laugh about. It’s not like she’s going to be permanently branded as an immoral person.
May 4th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Tell that to former Miss Nevada Katie Rees. She was 19 when those were taken.
May 4th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
[…] On her own blog, Garance explains further: …Our laws recognize that maturity comes slowly. In addition to the minimum drinking age of 21, the minimum age for entering Congress is 25, and for the Senate, 30. Many jurisdictions make 21 the baseline minimum for holding state senatorial or other government positions, while others use 25 as their local baseline. Several states have a 30-year-old minimum for the governorships, and we’re all familiar with the 35 year minimum that exists for the presidency. […]
May 4th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
No surprise there. The beauty contests are problematic enough that I’d hesitate to use them as examples (never mind Donald Trump…). They’re a perfect example of the immaculate public image that is so much harder to maintain in the modern landscape that a lot of younger people aren’t even trying.
There really are two issues here, and if Atrios is confused it’s because they’re being conflated. On the one hand there’s the argument that a picture of a young woman flashing her breasts at a Mardi Gras can pose problems later on. On the other hand, there’s the exploitation, for profit, of young women by scum like the guy behind GGW.
The first issue is going to have to become a non-issue, because it’s beginning to look like the pools for eligible new hires is going to shrink drastically if racy pictures or suggestive posts on Facebook can disqualify them. The second issue ties into the problem of the porn and sex industries generally. The issue there, it seems to me, is that the women involved are goaded and exploited and often plied with alcohol, all for profit. Whether 100 people or 10,000 people see that is beside the point. Whether or not they can get a job later is beside the point. They were still taken advantage of.
Question: On whom does the penalty fall? Is it the model’s legal responsibility not to participate in a commercial striptease if she’s under 21? Or is the publisher legally responsible to make sure the model is 21+ before filming? Or do the consequences fall on them both?
May 4th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Ironic that Barry Deutsch would talk about informed consent wrt pornography. He pimped out his traffic of mostly feminist anti-porn women back when he sold his domain to a pornographer. Didn’t ask his wimyn then if they gave informed consent to have their traffic used to promote pornography.
Yes, yes, feminist Barry Deutsch is always thoughtful, gush.
May 4th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Just to be clear, this means no models for art classes under the age of 21, no use of actresses under the age of 21 in plays with nudity that might be filmed for archival reasons, right? If I take a picture of a crowd at Mardi Gras that includes some (unknown to me) women flashing other people, and then put it up on flicker, am I liable, or is flicker liable, or both? Are we actually limiting this to nudity, or does it include sexualized images of the sort found in ads
Why not a revocation of consent period for people under 21? You get consent, can make use of a model, but must get an affirmation of consent some two weeks later?
May 4th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
How about raising the age of consent to joining the military to 21?
Why does The Garance feel that men and women can give meaningful consent to join the Army at age 17, and not before they are 21?
Why does The Garance think that violence is preferable to sexuality?
Babe, that’s sick.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Tell that to former Miss Nevada Katie Rees. She was 19 when those were taken.
So are you one of the bluenoses “condemning” her?
Your entire argument reeks of gross Victoria-era male chauvinism. I guess you and Althouse have a lot in common after all.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Tell that to former Miss Nevada Katie Rees. She was 19 when those were taken.
I have vastly more respect for someone who simply posed nude or flashed her boobs at age 19 than I do for some allegedly “mature” woman who participated in a freaking beauty contest.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Oh, really, no.
People are rational actors, or at least are entitled to have the law treat them as rational actors. You are either an adult or you’re not. This is a horrible idea. As the poster above notes, maybe Garance and Ann Althouse are more alike than we thought.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
1. I just realized that (I believe) Rees never bares her breasts (or other parts) in the photos to which you link. So it really does appear that you mean to include fully clothed situations. If determining “competent” is hard, I think determining “sexualized” is likely to be much harder.
2. This (honestly) isn’t meant as gotcha, but isn’t it fair to say that decision whether or not to carry a fetus to term is much more important (perhaps most obviously if someone decides to do so) in determining the course of one’s life than whether to pose for pictures? If we believe that young men and women are not competent to make the latter decision, I’m not sure why we would unrestrictedly believe they are competent to make the former.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
As the poster above notes, maybe Garance and Ann Althouse are more alike than we thought.
Give me a break. I think it’s a bad idea, too. Doesn’t make her Althouse.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Then there’s this:
“Mr. Francis has made it socially acceptable for a freshman at, say, Ohio State–living in a dorm room in Columbus like thousands of freshmen before her–to participate in soft-core porn.”
It’s been “socially acceptable” for a college freshman to participate in soft-core porn for a long time. I went to college over a decade ago, I had a Playboy subscription and a few Playboy VHS tapes, and Mr. Francis played no role.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Trying to make Garance’s proposal more concrete. Her law would:
1. Prohibit commercial distribution of photography/film featuring fully naked female breasts or male/female genitals, if the person portrayed was under 21 when filmed.
2. Prohibit paying under-21s anything of significant value to be filmed/photographed for purposes of displaying female breasts or male/female genitals. I’m not completely sure if Garance meant to include this.
3. Create for under-21s an inalienable right to control one’s naked images. This is similar to publicity rights discussed in privacy law, except that publicity rights are alienable and only concern commercial rights. Image rights for pre-21 images could be made alienable after the subject turns 21.
I don’t think this is a good idea, particularly #3, but I thought I’d try and make it more concrete.
I think #1 and #2 would be fine for hard-core porn, prostitution, and boxing, though. My $0.02
May 4th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Isn’t there a way to limit the distribution of GGW without suggesting a) that girls are too stupid to know what they’re doing, and b) that their innocence must be maintained at all costs?
You mention that the “supply side” is vulnerable to change. Well, there are lots of ways to intervene in the supply side without placing greater restrictions on what people are allowed to do. The problem, really, isn’t that girls are taking their clothes off; the problem lies with Joe whatshisface and that GGW production and distribution is unregulated.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
“Mr. Francis has made it socially acceptable for a freshman at, say, Ohio State–living in a dorm room in Columbus like thousands of freshmen before her–to participate in soft-core porn.”
You have to be kidding me. At Ohio State, it’s not even socially acceptable to take the lord’s name in vain or for a woman to leave her dorm room for Bible study without a male companion.
I think what you mean is, it has become acceptable *to men* with the sufficient disposable income to buy GGW, for other men to film women taking their clothes off in Miami and Cancun.
Before you start suggesting solutions, be sure you know what the problem is.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
One cannot coherently argue that young women are competent to decide when and with whom they will engage in sex, or whether they will or will not bring a pregnancy to term and simultaneously argue that they need paternalistic protection from the choice to be photographed in the nude. Whether one approves or disapproves of the choice made doesn’t enter in to it.
All that’s left, once this issue is resolved, is a matter of contract law: Whether or not one is legally competent to enter into a contract and what laws are appropriate in regulating the contract.
I really don’t see how you can amend the law in the fashion that Garance suggests unless you raise the age at which anyone may enter into a contract. Arbitrarily limiting the right of contract for an entire class of voting citizens based on nothing other than age strikes me as unworkable for reasons legal, economic and Constitutional.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
At Ohio State, it’s not even socially acceptable to take the lord’s name in vain or for a woman to leave her dorm room for Bible study without a male companion.
I simply don’t believe that. I’d link to a picture of Buckeye sex, but I’m not sure GFR’s proposal has a “fair use”-like exception.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
People often think Americans are somehow incapable of being as mature as most European countries are, and I don’t understand why.
Most European countries have legal drinking ages of 16-18, and legal sex ages of 16. Do they somehow mature at faster rates than we do? Isn’t it odd there are not only zero signs of their cultures being negatively effected by this, but also the opposite is true; where rape, violent crimes, children out of wedlock, abortion and binge-drinking are far far less than that of us here in USA.
Does the author here have so little respect for adults in this country where she thinks that only laws can control our national immaturity?
Very strange
May 4th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
I don’t think it’s enough to state that the law recognizes different levels of maturity. I’d really like to know why it’s not OK to get a 20 year old drunk, have her flash for the cameras, and get her to sign a consent, but it’s perfectly fine for a 21 year old. Not only that, but why specifically do they need to be protected when it comes to pornography, but not other areas?
I just find your statement that high school seniors are less mature than college graduates a rather broad argument (not to mention thin, because not everyone goes through that stage of the developmental process via higher education), and I think, as this seems to be the crux of your issue, that you’d need more evidence to support that there are fundamental developmental differences between 18 and 21 year olds, and that these require extra provisions when it comes to pornography. You might feel that an 18 year old isn’t ready to make that decision, but why should I?
Frankly, I think if you had this law, you’d just get GGW with 21 year olds instead of 18 year olds, and I don’t really see that as a big improvement. I mean, what’s the goal here? I’d be much more in favor of tackling the drunken consent issue than the age issue.
May 4th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
SomeCallMeTim: I was using a rhetorical tactic we here at OSU call “hyperbole.” Believe me, Columbus OH is a backward place where 50s style patriarchy thrives. (Not that 50s style patriarchy is incompatible with GGW–quite the contrary!). And the evangelists are doing pretty well for themselves, too.
May 4th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
This seems like a pretty big step with all sorts of unthought of ramifications for basically dealing with the problem that Joe Franics is a scumbag.
Playboy has been publishing nude photos of 18 year olds for 40 years. Mainstream movies with nude 18 year olds have been aorund since the 60s.
The problem with GGW isn’t that the girls are 18 instead of 21. The problem is Francis is a scum who preys on drunk women and manipulates them into doing things they woudln’t do sober. Basically he is every frat boy date rapist writ large only instead of raping some coed he puts her in videos.
As others have said, the way to deal with him is address that, make it illegal to enter a binding contract with someone who is drunk and enforce it. Hit him where it hurts, not slaps on the wrist, charge him a serious fine for every violation.
May 4th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Sorry, but this is a terrible idea. The law already denies young people far too many rights, and the misguided examples of age restrictions on elected office do nothing to justify any further restrictions.
If you’re going to propose laws based on the idea that adults between the ages of 18 and 21 aren’t really “adult” enough to make their own decisions, then at least have the balls to propose it across the board, not just for porn.
No signing contracts until you’re 21. No joining the military until you’re 21. No buying cigarettes, cars, or houses until you’re 21. No voting until you’re 21 - oh wait, we tried that one already.
Honestly, if we allow someone to sign themselves up for a mortgage and ship themselves off to die in Iraq, how dare we tell them they aren’t “mature” enough to get paid for a few nude photos?
May 4th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Uh, for a lot of women (and many men) who don’t have the benefit of college, doing sex work (including stripping, escorting, porn and phone sex) is a great way to pay the bills until they can land a good-enough day job. This proposal smacks of the perspective of people who never worried about making the rent.
May 4th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Are you opposed to pornography in general?
Intoxication issues aside….why do you submit to the idea that these women should be embarrassed later in life for showing their breasts? Why do you impose that they should have to regret their decision instead of looking back without remorse and with a laugh, or even, dare say it, pride?
It seems like an awful puritanical approach and one that furthers ideas about women that most of us are staunchly opposed to…they can’t make their own decisions. Sure you include males in ‘your law’, but come on, the genesis of the idea is GGW…women!
The fact that a ’sober’ woman should later feel any sense of regret for showing her breasts as opposed to her smile at the age of 19 is an indictment on our society. Hell I’m embarrassed at old pictures of me…with clothes on, but I don’t want the use of photography equipment banned.
If you really want to make a difference on society, instead of working to further the insecurities of woman about showing their god given bodies, how about applying this argument to the juvenile justice system???
You don’t want to let a 19 year old woman pose for GGW, but a 14 year old can get tried as an adult? Fix that problem and then we will talk. Otherwise you are pandering and in my opinion displaying your true aversion, which is to the display of the female body in public. That is the fault of society and your puritanical upbringing, not the fault of women whose values don’t mirror yours.
May 4th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
I disagree with this proposal for many reasons but I wonder what’s being suggested to get around First Amendment issues here. Sexual expression in the form of adult entertainment is protected speech. This proposal seeks to restrict free speech of certain adults of legal age by virtue of their age. Consumption of alcohol is not protected speech.
Sure, you can tackle the First Amendment issue by going after the protection this sort of sexual expression has. There is a gray area around obscenity and community standards yet. And with this Supreme Court there’s even more likelihood they’d be willing to restrict certain speech for certain adults.
And what of the availability of online adult entertainment containing 18-20 year olds hosted on servers outside the US? Is the proposal that ISPs be required to block sites with that sort of content? Would the burden fall to the ISPs to verify the models and performers on adult sites are 21 and over? If so, ISPs would likely fight this. To convince them otherwise you’d have to fight the demand for pornography which means fighting a culture war about sex…which adults should have what kind, where and when. And you’ll have to excuse me as a gay man for finding than scary because that’s not a proverbial slippery slope but a recently defeated reality.
Also, I’m not prepared to sit down with an 18-20 year old and explain to them that I know better and so I’m taking this right of expression away. I’ve worked for a gay adult entertainment company for several years now and we’ve hired a handful of men 18-20 years old. Each was strikingly intelligent and in great command of their sexuality. I’m sure there are plenty who are not but I could build an enormous list of people 21 and well over that have worked for us without half the sense of these younger people that have worked for us.
May 4th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Issues of pornography and sexualization aside–good God, what have I become, setting those issues aside?–the claim that we’ve set the drinking age at 21 because the law “recognize[s] that maturity comes slowly” maybe shouldn’t be stated as incontrovertible fact, don’tcha think?
I mean, I can’t prove this, but as far as I can tell all that cutoff does is make us idiots about alcohol until we’re 23 instead of 20 (assuming the alternative is 18, which I think everyone assumes). It’s the practice that “matures” us, not the amount of cells that die and get replaced.
Not to get sidetracked, but if we’re talking about when you’re allowed to do what, it seems relevant.
I mean, I don’t care–the barely legal stuff creeps me out anyway–but this kinda seems like buttinskyism (a thoughtful strain of buttinskyism, don’t misunderstand).
May 5th, 2007 at 12:51 am
Let’s deal with a little bit of reality here. The GGW gimmick is pretty basic: the video crew goes to a resort area and recruits young women to appear on camera.
So the women in those videos are generally college girls who have traveled to Mardi Gras or a beach resort for spring break. By the standards of most of the country, these are privileged people. They’ve got some time to kill and enough money for a week in Panama City or New Orleans or wherever.
The people from GGW might be the biggest creeps on earth, but they aren’t kidnapping girls from bus stops and forcing them to do anything. If the young women want to get naked for the camera while on their vacation, it’s their choice. Hey, I think they’d be better off spending their spring break wearing work clothes and helping out at Habitat for Humanity. But I wouldn’t suggest legislating that.
The idea that we have to start making laws to protect college girls from embarrassing themselves actually gets into some seriously dangerous territory. It’s a reinforcement of the idea that young women really shouldn’t be thinking for themselves. And that doesn’t seem like a good direction to take.
May 5th, 2007 at 1:39 am
Ms. Garance,
I agree with both your goals and your values. But I believe your approach is flawed.
A better one is to simply say that “consent” for pornographic images given prospectively is invalid, and that “consent” can only be given retrospectively.
The logical rational for this rule is that until and unless the “model” has actually reviewed the actual images that are going to be published, the model cannot possibly give “informed” consent, because the model cannot possibly understand either the appearance of her image or the context of how it is going to be used.
The practical effect of this rule is that GGW would have to get permission from all those drunk coeds at the bars after they were no longer in the drunk and at the bar, and without the influence of a crowd of cheering men egging them on.
Instead, they would asked to give consent after the tapes had been edited into their final form. At that point, the simple logistics of editing tapes would insure that these young women would be sober, at home, and the peer pressure dynamic that concerns both of us would likely be reversed. These young women would also be armed with the benefit of knowing how they were actually going to look in the actual video.
In this manner, these young women would be protected, at the same time that they were being treated as adults, with their agency to pose nude if they so chose fully in tact.
While I suspect (and hope) that legislation like this would ruin the GGW business model, to the extent that it did not, it would certainly insure that the girls who appeared in future GGW videos knew exactly what they were doing, and weren’t pushed into doing it by peer pressure and/or inebrients.
May 5th, 2007 at 8:04 am
Girls Go Wild - Not Their Fault?…
Garance Franke-Ruta, a senior editor at the liberal American Prospect, takes to the conservative editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal to decry the “Girls Gone Wild” problem and call for a nanny state solution: “It is time to rai…
May 5th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Who Hates Women Doing Porn for Money?…
Garance Franke-Ruta’s proposal to forbid women (and men, she adds as an afterthought) under 21 from doing softcore or hardcore porn for money has received a respectful hearing. The usual suspects chime in with support. I just can’t take it…
May 5th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Over on my blog (and reposted on her or his own blog), Mithras makes a good point: it’s possible that this proposal is unconstitutional. In the US, posing for porn is more-or-less considered protected speech.
May 5th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
All that would be lost is young men and women’s ability to participate in commercial enterprises looking to sell their erotic images, and the risk of involuntary distribution of their non-commerical images. Women and men would gain a greater right to control their own erotic images until age 21.
Garance, I know you believe this but I think you are grossly mistaken. What you are actually advocating, in my opinion, is empowering the state to classify legal adults, 18-20 years old, as incompetent to enter into contracts as regards “erotic images” of themselves. Puting aside the question of exactly what constitutes an “erotic image”, this would establish the authority of the state to regulate the sexual expression of legal adults based on soley on the criteria of age. I don’t think you really want to go there. Or am I mistaken?
May 5th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Hey look, it’s the always thoughtful Barry Ampersand Deutsch, who feels the need to protect his grrls with a restrictive banning policy and forums in which only feminists can read.
And it’s teh same Barry Deutsch who sold his domain to pornographers so that he could make money off of the protected girllllzzz! And fuck over the man in Google at teh same timz!
Woohoo! You go girl, pimp out your girls, support pr0n, pander to the feminists, make your bones anyway you can, and get Garance all wet over you. Gush.
May 5th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
This is pretty much the perfect solution:
A better one is to simply say that “consent” for pornographic images given prospectively is invalid, and that “consent” can only be given retrospectively.
The logical rational for this rule is that until and unless the “model” has actually reviewed the actual images that are going to be published, the model cannot possibly give “informed” consent, because the model cannot possibly understand either the appearance of her image or the context of how it is going to be used.
The practical effect of this rule is that GGW would have to get permission from all those drunk coeds at the bars after they were no longer in the drunk and at the bar, and without the influence of a crowd of cheering men egging them on.
Instead, they would asked to give consent after the tapes had been edited into their final form. At that point, the simple logistics of editing tapes would insure that these young women would be sober, at home, and the peer pressure dynamic that concerns both of us would likely be reversed. These young women would also be armed with the benefit of knowing how they were actually going to look in the actual video.
Give people the right to back out.
The people dissing Garance for daring to suggest that people should be embarrassed for being caught flashing on camera, these people are missing the point and shooting the messenger. People are embarassed. They’re emotionally damaged. And their lives can be changed. Negatively. We do indeed need rules changed to stop it. Those rules shouldn’t maybe involve making it impossible for people who want to get naked for cameras, but they should give consent a lot more teeth.
May 5th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
The people dissing Garance for daring to suggest that people should be embarrassed for being caught flashing on camera, these people are missing the point and shooting the messenger. People are embarassed. They’re emotionally damaged. And their lives can be changed. Negatively. We do indeed need rules changed to stop it.
I also did not think the proposal you cite is a bad one. I can see some problems and I don’t think it is the sort of thing that should be applied in this specific and narrow context but it has a certain potential with respect to how we think about the ownership of images of ourselves. It also is nothing like what Franke Ruta proposed for which she is being deservedly criticized. She very explicitly proposed treating 18-20 year olds as a different class altogether in the context of making adult decisions. Hers is a paternalistic and deeply odious proposal in my opinion.
Yes people are embarrassed by the things that they do when they are young. I think the real negative consequences of one’s appearance on GGW is probably a bit exaggerated here but I can see as where the experience could be more traumatic for some than for others. But the bottom line here is that these are the sorts of consequences involved with being an adult and being able to enter in any contract. It takes almost no imagination at all to see that suggesting that we ought to treat 18-20 year olds as essentially incapable of giving informed consent on matters like this will have profoundly negative effects on the personal freedoms of all young people in a much wider range of issues but of women especially on issues concerning control over their own bodies.
May 5th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
I think, that age laws should all be consistent in terms of intent, as things stands now for United States, it is unfair that there is a group of young people who will be:
- old enough to kill and die for their government and go to jail for bailing out
- not old enough to avoid being arrested for drinking
- too young to support themselves because there are laws that says they get paid less (?) and even if they aren’t, a lot of them can’t
- too old to be taken care of by the child service system
- too young for student loans to not be signed by the parents (this goes in Canada) and to receive welfare or other services without a million questions about the parents?
- old enough to be kicked out (teens)…but young enough for parents to know about their abortions
- old enough to be exploited sexually, yet too young to deserve a right to control their own sexuality (societal pressure and misc laws)
ETC, ETC
I think, ‘age of…laws’ should be set with this in mind; that which most protect the health of youths beneath 20. The adult age should be raised to 20, though the rights to vote should remain 18, along with the rights to leave whenever and with support, with support and the right to self-determination provided at 15 for exceptional circumstances (abusive parents, or loss of parents, in which case I believe that if no foster parents are available, letting them live by themselves among ‘the normals’ with social workers visitations is better than locking them up….I think that’s how they do it in Japan? Or is it just the CLAMP’s manga universe?).
At present, in Canada for me, and the people I know, it’s very difficult that they have no control over their own lives before 18, and then when they get it, all the pressure that comes with it is dropped on them, and support withdrawn? What if they come from a backward home with parents that interfered with their education and other things they need to build up their independence? A transitional period with additional rights and remaining actual SUPPORT is needed. Voting is needed because young people, while they are still mandated to be in the educational system, and therefore surrounded by both their peers on a regular basis, need to start practicing their rights to vote. I don’t think that small group of 18-20 will be a /significant/ tide turner, but it will still have enough power that they feel useful and are given a voice in the political system.
Only at the new adult age of 20 should people be allowed to /serve/ the army, though they might began training earlier, they can back out before 20. All governments needs to lower their age of admission to 20, or provide actually influential positions for issues and sections extremely relevant to youths; the military being a big one, the treatment of soldiers, university…at the very least, have a youth senate in Parliament/Congress that have the right to speak up in equal times to the rest of the government so that youth issues, current issues, can’t be buried.
The age of consent should be 20 as well, with close-age of exemption laws, you can have sex at any age YOU decide to, but how old who you have sex with is regulated, as in, no one below the age of 20 who is more than 3 or 1 years younger for example? I don’t think we should punish teenagers for having sex at all, they have a right to it, though the younger they are, the more unhealthy it is likely to be due to lack of emotional maturity and understanding… They should be allowed to decide for themselves, access to information, and be protected at the same time from older people who will exploit their vulnerability.
May 6th, 2007 at 6:21 am
[…] In expanded thoughts on her own site, Garance notes that “our laws recognize that maturity comes slowly,” with different age thresholds required for voting, drinking, serving as Representative, Senator, and President. Any “age of consent” line is arbitrary in the particular no matter how scientific it is in the aggregate. Yet we draw lines anyway. […]
May 6th, 2007 at 9:05 am
The people dissing Garance for daring to suggest that people should be embarrassed for being caught flashing on camera, these people are missing the point and shooting the messenger. People are embarassed. They’re emotionally damaged. And their lives can be changed. Negatively. We do indeed need rules changed to stop it. Those rules shouldn’t maybe involve making it impossible for people who want to get naked for cameras, but they should give consent a lot more teeth.
I like this. Let’s substitute terms, shall we?
The people dissing Will Saletan for daring to suggest that women should be embarrassed for having abortions, these people are missing the point and shooting the messenger. Women are embarassed. They’re emotionally damaged. And their lives can be changed. Negatively. We do indeed need rules changed to stop it. Those rules shouldn’t maybe involve making it impossible for women who want to get abortions, but they should give consent a lot more teeth.
Stupid womens. What do they know? They’re all prone to being sluts who can’t keep their legs closed or their shirts on. They need protecting from their own stupid selves.
May 6th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
[…] Reliable sources have informed me that apparently linking to Alas, A Blog has become controversial for reasons outlined at The Reclusive Leftist, Hugo Schwyzer, and Laurelin in the Rain. This is all news to me, as I somehow missed this controversy over the fall. I don’t particularly want to get into the middle of the flap or discuss its merits, just to say that I was previously unaware of the controversy and thus not intentionally taking sides. […]
May 6th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
[…] The waiting period idea is just one way to deal with the issue of informed consent — to make sure that a person isn’t impaired when they’re signing away rights to these images. Garance responds to Ezra’s suggestion by writing: As for Ezra Klein’s suggestion that we lower the drinking age to 18 and create a category of “impaired consent” under which no one could legally participate in anything, I really don’t think we want to go there. […]
May 6th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
The “I am not a lawyer” quote says it all: Each day lawyers see the fallout from such stupid “there ought to be a law” solutions.
Worse, the phrase “not result in any kind of massive prosecutorial crackdown per se” is beltway babble - I can assure you that in the land of bible babble, there will be a prosecutorial crackdown. I see political prosecutions in the area of sexuality every day. Try explaining how a 16 year old honor student has been waived to adult court, has had sex with his 15 year old girlfriend and now will be a registered sex offender when he gets out of prison. Parents are stunned - they had no idea we have such ludicrous laws. Welcome to the real world.
Finally, the naive nature of the suggestion shows what happens when great intellect is coupled with great inexperience. With great intellect comes a duty to use it wisely. Learn and move on Garance.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
“The “I am not a lawyer” quote says it all: Each day lawyers see the fallout from such stupid “there ought to be a law” solutions.”
As a lawyer, I disagree with this statement - non-lawyers can perceive a problem and propose solutions. They should try and be as specific as they can, and then lawyers should take it the rest of the way.
The following paragraph was better - a proposed change may or may not end up being a morass - that’s something that lawyers can provide special expertise, but only after we’ve got specifics to look at.
I suspect that all the proposed cures so far are worse than the disease, but I’m not going to criticize them for being vague at this early stage.
May 7th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
So if 20-year-olds can’t consent to use their bodies for commercial interests here, you obviously must believe that 20-year-olds can’t consent to have an abortion. Right?
May 7th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Raising the Minimum Age for Porn…
Garance Franke-Ruta wants to raise the minimum age for consenting to participate in hard- and softcore pornography to 21. I have a better idea….
May 8th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
This is absurd. The writer assumes that a 18 year old is mature enough to fight in the military, sit on a jury, and vote, but is not developed enough pyschologically to make the weighty decision to purchase a beer or take their clothes off for someone. She states that raising the drinking age has saved lives. Funny, that sounds oddly familiar to arguments the Bush administration made to justify violating our civil liberties via warantless wiretapping. It’s unfortunate that Garence believes that legislating her thin definition of morality and maturity should supersede the constitutional rights that should be afforded to everyone recognized as an adult by the government.
May 9th, 2007 at 1:19 am
[…] However, as I made clear last Friday, May 4, I have recommended no such thing and do not support legal penalties against teenage participants: Under what I am suggesting — which is really, at this point, more a general principle for legislation than a fully worked out proposal (I’m no lawyer) — women and men under 21 would retain the right to flash anyone they wanted or take photos for personal use, under the theory that the people a law is intended to protect should not be punished under it. All that would be lost is young men and women’s ability to participate in commercial enterprises looking to sell their erotic images, and the risk of involuntary distribution of their non-commerical images….The intent would be to expand the zone of privacy for young men and women. […]
May 9th, 2007 at 11:01 am
The law already circumscribes contracting rights based on competence. Did you not know that?
May 9th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
So, let’s see how this would work. Girls–not women–who are legal adults, between the ages of 18 to 21, would be consenting to illegal behavior. So, presumably both they and the folks they sold the pictures to would be committing crimes prosecutable by jail time.
And this is supposed to help prevent her from wrecking her life how?
May 10th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
The analogy to the legal drinking age is inapt. There is a significant difference between a state’s power to regulate sales of alcoholic beverage, which is expressly granted in the Twenty-First Amendment, and the state’s limited ability to regulate (non-obscene) adult pornography, which is First Amendment protected. (Pornographic images of actual children, whether obscene or not, are outside the realm of First Amendment protection.)
A statute which would prohibit 18 year old adults from engaging in expression which is permitted for 21 year olds would not likely withstand constitutional scrutiny.
I am surprised that no one has mentioned this.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:34 am
[…] theGarance.com » The Law is a Flexible Instrument … new hires is going to shrink drastically if racy pictures … girls who have traveled to Mardi Gras or a beach resort for spring break. … some time to kill and enough money for a week in Panama City … http://thegarance.com/archives/361 […]
August 8th, 2007 at 11:09 am
pregnancy…
pregnancy…
August 12th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
I have to say, that I could not agree with you in 100% regarding The Law is a Flexible Instrument, but it’s just my opinion, which could be wrong :)
August 14th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
[…] The article further reports: “In the seven years of the Bush administration, the department has prosecuted about 24 obscenity cases, several centered on film producers who failed to keep proper records showing that their models were not minors.” As I argued here, conservatives like to pretend they energetically oppose pornography, while liberals like to pretend that porn is under attack. Neither is true, but the respective heuristics are so useful to partisans that no one wants to pay attention to what is actually occuring, which in my opinion is that porn has become socially nomalized so effectively that the industry and its output is less subject scritiny and criticism than McDonald’s commercials. The Playboy corporation adorns household goods and children’s toys with its bunny logo and observers talk about how mild and innocent the naked photos in the company’s magazine are, willfully ignoring the fact that Playboy’s main source of revenue is via the production and distribution of hardcore pornography. […]